One thing that EV's have an advantage of is the reduced footprint of their drivetrain. The primary bulk of an EV is the massive battery that usually spans the bottom of the car opening up space in the interior or the ubiquitous EV "frunk" this makes for a more spacious interior and the Y takes advantage of this well.
That being said it seems that 2023 is the year of the EV, my family is currently in the market for a new car and have been pleasantly surprised at the breadth of offerings.
I can't really make up my mind on whether the fact that the model Y is the "best selling model of car" is something to hang your hat on these days. It's a great metric, sure, but it's been in a somewhat limited market. On it's face I can see it's appeal - size, space, EV, extra seating - its NOT A MINIVAN. But it seems like a fairly easy moat to breach. One thing about the Corolla was it's build quality was top notch it was a solid, reliable car and it seems more and more lately this isn't a hallmark of Tesla. I wouldn't be surprised for the model Y to keep the mantle of "best selling model" - particularly because of Tesla's lead in its ability to manufacture electric cars and the surface appeal of the model Y - but I wouldn't be surprised if it lost this lead as well.
Since other car makers are trying to cover the market by diversifying their model lineup, this is hardly surprising. I mean, just take BMW, despite seemingly not taking EVs seriously at first, they already have more different EV models to choose from than Tesla. So even if BMW would overtake Tesla in total EV sales, the Model Y would probably still get to keep the "best selling car" title...
Even if you total up all the models from other manufacturers, it still doesn't touch the model Y or model 3 for sheer volume. Add all 4 Tesla models up and it's a bloodbath. (This is in the markets people on HN probably care about, North America and Europe. China is another matter.)
Norway is the most mature EV market in the world, and looking at 2022 numbers Tesla sold the most cars, but VW is not far behind. 21300 for Tesla (most model Y) vs 20183 for VW (most Id.4), of which the vast majority (like 90% or more) were EVs.
So Tesla is strong, but they are not crushing the market.
The BMW group sold 588,138 cars in 2023. Where is that a bloodbath?
of which how many were electric?
Figures that I have for Q1 2023 for BMW Group (which includes Mini) are: 588,138 total, including 64,647 BEV. So that's 11% BEV. IN Q1 2022, figures were: 596,907 total, including about 25,940 BEV. So it was 4.3% BEV.
Going from 4.3% BEV to 11% BEV may not sound so impressive, but little by little non Tesla BEVs are adding up, and I think many car makers are investing very seriously into it.
Historically the car market has not been one of monopoly, I don't think it's going to change with Tesla. Market shares will change, some car makers will fail to adapt, but I don't think German carmakers are the ones that will suffer the most. Japanese carmakers I have more doubt: they are moving very slowly, but on the other hand Japan knows how to manufacture batteries at scale (Panasonic), so once Toyota decides to move seriously into BEV, they might be able to move very fast.
I'm a lot more worried about my own country carmakers (Renault and Peugeot). Not only they move slowly and erratically, they are going to compete head on, on price, with Chinese carmakers...
BMW is fine. They already have a purely EV platform and are selling something like 10 BEV models...
I think the point is that electric cars the digital cameras of today.
Consumers are shifting to EVs faster than expected, and it is catching some car makers (e.g. Toyota) flat footed.
Who sold the most horses in 1908?
“Tesla not only beat all US luxury automakers on car sales for 2022 as a whole, but also beat them by a ridiculous margin. BMW was the former champ, and while its sales dropped by over 5% year over year, Tesla's sales grew by more than a whopping 40%.”
https://insideevs.com/news/652873/tesla-tops-bmw-us-luxury-c...
If you’re pummeling Toyota with a luxy model, the rest are just fluff.
it will as gas car as time goes on. BMW could be okay for a while with his customers that are looking for that vintage gas smell, sound and feel.
Why would HN people not care about sales in China?
Because they live in an alternate dimension with a peculiar market that's kinda bubbled off. China is also like a decade ahead in electrification.
All scooters in large cities have been electric for over a decade (its a weird time warp coming to taiwan and experiencing the stench of scooter on your morning commute)
They had a fully electric taxi service about 7 years ago. Inside the city medium size trucks (for delivering merchandise to stores) are all electric. They have tons of local brands that produce electric consumer cars
However the domestic market is ginormous and they only make weak attempts at going global. The international market is fragmentary and you can be arbitrarily extrajudicially curb stomped with tariffs or outright bands due to anti China hysteria
"What city? Surely not Beijing. Maybe Shenzhen?"
As you've caught on, I'm a bit fuzzy on the dates.. But I feel I was riding Caocao taxis in Chengdu around then?
"Definitely not the blue trucks that are only allowed inside the 5th ring at night and cause air quality to tank after midnight"
Yeah you're right! I was off the mark there. There are smog monsters at night thats for sure. Forgot about those haha. During the day the smaller refrigerated trucks were electric though
As to your last point.. It's not a simple topic, but protectionism in theory only hurts your own market and your own consumers. Reciprocity is kinda irrelevant
"Lots of air pollution" and "lots of electric vehicles" can be true in the same sentence.
Vehicles are not the only source of severe air pollution.
That link points out that air pollution isn’t “primarily” due to vehicle emissions except in some cities.
On both regional and national scales, vehicle emission has been identified as one of the most important contributors to air pollution in most cities in China (Gong et al., 2017; Wang et al., 2010; Wu et al., 2016), and has even surpassed other contamination sources in some cities.The Chinese car market is full of brands that don't even try to sell their cars outside China. But it's noteworthy that Tesla is a top seller there as well, second only to local juggernaut BYD in EVs.
https://carnewschina.com/2023/02/13/ranking-of-china-market-...
If you spent 5 mins looking at the data, you’d realize you’re completely wrong lol.
It's easy to say "it's hardly surprising" now, but if you'd predicted this 4 or 5 years ago, plenty of people would have been surprised.
What sets Tesla apart right now is their manufacturing capability. They are out-competing everyone else right now on cost and scale. That's the difference between having really juicy margins on their cars produced large volume and the likes of BMW, Ford, and others actually selling EVs at a loss in comparatively tiny volumes. Every time Tesla lowers their pricing, everybody else takes a big hit.
And while Tesla takes the crown here, they aren't the only new kid on the block that is extremely successful in the EV market. The likes of BYD and other Chinese manufacturers aren't far behind and are following a similar strategy to Tesla. Cheap Chinese exports are going to do similar things to the car industry that the Japanese car industry did in the eighties. The likes of Toyota of course were part of that move and it decimated the rest of the industry. That looks like it might happen again. Except this time it's Chinese manufacturers leading here; and Tesla of course.
The game right now isn't producing more concept cars, quick and dirty ICE conversions, or yet another over priced premium SUV ev but actually tackling the less premium mass market segment. This is only possible after companies nail cost and efficiency. And most of them are nowhere close to doing that. Tesla is ramping up to start selling millions of more modestly priced cars. BYD is already shipping loads of those in China. They are ready now.
Toyota particularly is far behind. The only EVs they have in the market are actually made by BYD. These are Toyota in name only. It's a BYD with a Toyota sticker slapped on. Reason: until they replaced their CEO recently, they were stubbornly pursuing things like hybrids and hydrogen cars and miscalculating how long they had to make that work. EVs priced around 20-30K$ are going to be a big problem for Toyota. Most of their remaining ICE market is at or above that price point and EVs with lower cost of ownership and a lower price tag can do some serious damage to that market. That's why they are partnering with BYD while they are figuring that out.
Is Toyota BYD’s JV partner in China? I think the BYD taxi I rode in was based off a Camry body, but it seems their JV partner is GAC, so it isn’t clear how that came to be.
Plenty of China-only car models are more than "inspired" from existing vehicle models.
But if I take BMW, I see they currently have three all electric models on offer: iX, i7, i4.
…and the i5, iX3 and iX1.
And I think about 5 more models, at least, on the way until 2025.
Maybe because BMW customers still prefer combustion engines.
It depends on the market. BMW doesn’t sell much ICE cars anymore in Norway, a western market considered a few years ahead the other north European markets.
Its even more ironic that you are so stupid.
You have it the wrong way. ICE cars has always been heavily taxed, especially more powerful ICE cars are 2x more expensive in Norway than in EU. EV's just have no tax and only VAT added above 45k USD
Not quite. Fuel is overtaxed there and very expensive, that's a bit different from Saudis,but combined with other factors mentioned by you and the fact most of their energy is green hydro, it makes sense to them to ditch ice when there's option to buy a new car
Norway would much rather leverage their abundant hydro for domestic personal transport needs and just export their oil instead. That really isn’t ironic, just practical.
Tesla is about to overtake BMW by car sales, not just EV
But you are quite right. Given Tesla's mission and recent discontinuation of X and S and in RHD markets it wouldn't be surprised if they eventually killed them altogether. Let the premium makers like BMW, MB, Lucid focus on a niche luxury markets; use Tesla's time to make cheaper EVs.
Would be a mistake. The luxury brand pulls in the economy car buyers. The plaid & x is a great marketing tool.
Until it becomes part of base package :)
X? Ugliest car on the road.
I was wondering how HN was going to spin this. The problem with this argument is that the Model Y by itself outsold the entire BMW electric lineup combined. In fact, 4 times the entire combined amount.
It's better to just compare brand-to-brand EV sales, rather than per model. Only Tesla can sell same model so much. I wonder will people finally bored with too many same Tesla running on the road, and Tesla start expanding their lineup like Volkswagen, or people accept it like iPhone (have a dressing case like iPhone?).
Maybe because the typical BMW customer prefers combustion engines. Look at the overall sales not just EV
Tesla sold 1,247,146 cars in 2022. This year somewhere between 1.6M - 2.0M.
Last year BMW sold about 2.4M cars, so Tesla is quickly catching up in terms of numbers.
This is goalpost-shifting from the title, which doesn’t limit the comparison to electric cars.
I'm only counting the BMW i4, iX, i7, and i5, vs the Tesla S, 3, X, and Y.
Maybe I'm missing something, but the lineups seem comparable.
You are missing the combustion engine models. There many people that still prefer them over EV.
BMW group sold 588,138 units in 2023 and most weren't EV.
So it's not a true scotsman?
Translation: luxury vehicles are the future of car sales.
Model Y is 2 times as expensive as a Corolla.
Plus you can go and find an older Corolla with 100k+ miles on it and pay perhaps $5k cash for it, then drive it for another 50-100k.
I don't see people in the service industry picking up a used Tesla, now or in the foreseeable future.
> I don't see people in the service industry picking up a used Tesla, now or in the foreseeable future.
Purchase price, you've already touched on. You can't even get a USED Tesla for under $20K.
The second problem is charging. Apartments generally have a lack of EV chargers.
Although the purchase price is higher, lifetime is not much different.
https://thedriven.io/2023/04/27/tesla-model-3-total-cost-of-...
And the Model Y is cheaper than the Toyota Rav4 which is in the same category. So cheaper purchase price, and no annual oil changes, cheap miles (at least over in Finland where gas is 2e/liter, 8.14usd/gallon and electricity is around 10euro cents/kwh).
Teslas aren’t luxury vehicles, even if they’re sold at a luxury price point.
The base Model Y is not even at a luxury price point after tax credits.
But yeah, Tesla’s interior build quality is not really comparable with other luxury cars.
> Model Y is 2 times as expensive as a Corolla.
Which only makes this even more remarkable. What's going to happen when the Tesla 2 comes out and sells for the same price as a Corolla?
I’ve been waiting 10 years for this, gave up a while ago.
Nobody wants to sell electric cars for cheap, why throw away the margins you can get by selling them for more?
I don’t see a great opportunity for them to lower costs more on a cheaper model. Tesla already went through the exercise of making the cheaper version and people are paying premium prices for it anyway.
They will, soon. About 30 car manufacturers are entering the EV arena by 2026 and there isn't enough room for all of them at the top.
I don’t have data on this, but my subjective impression is that over the last several years, the number of manufacturers selling EVs and the price of EVs have both increased at the same time.
Of course, additional supply should normally decrease prices, but maybe there’s something weird going on. Here are some possible mechanisms I dreamed up:
1. Could the various manufacturers (collectively bringing lots of cash to break into the business) be bidding up the cost of some inputs? If high demand allows the market to bear higher prices, maybe everyone just ends up paying more?
2. As EV moves from “government environmental policy compliance program” to “luxury essential”, the types of cars on the market change. Just because it’s technically possible to make a cheap EV, doesn’t mean they will be readily available. By analogy, air-conditioned seats are no engineering marvel, but are usually only offered in upmarket vehicles, probably as a type of price discrimination.
>> Model Y is 2 times as expensive as a Corolla.
Which makes it that much more impressive that the Model Y outsells the Corolla...
Model y can get 10k in rebates depending on income. California would wave sales tax, give local rebates, and federal 7.5k rebate.
>Translation: luxury vehicles are the future of car sales.
Not in Europe, I was surprised to read that Dacia Sandero a model designed to be cheap was the best seller this year(in Europe), they also hit record sales last year. There are lot of people that do not have the moneyor do not want to spend it on luxury. (and btw before someone points the bad safety rating of Dacia, most of the bad score is because of missing of modern active safety stuff)
https://www.romania-insider.com/dacia-sandero-best-sold-euro...
I believe it is true in Europe too, it just happens with economic growth.
I.e. where people would buy a lot more utility cars before, they now buy more expensive bigger cars even if they don't need them. Those buying bigger cars are now buying SUVs.
Dacia ate the market of economy cars of FIAT, SEAT, and Pegeot, while those tried to move up market.
That's also why Dacia has the Duster ("SUV for poors") in their line up.
It's encouraging to note that most model Y cars ("standard range") use lithium iron phosphate batteries, which have far fewer problem with fires than lithium iron. Energy density per kilogram of lithium iron phosphate batteries is lower, but has been improving slowly. Tesla had to buy the technology from BYD.
I suspect that in a few years, batteries capable of thermal runaway will be prohibited. They're becoming unnecessary.
We've been using liquid hydrocarbons capable of thermal runaway (petrol/gasoline) for a century despite the existence of liquid hydrocarbons which are more resistant to ignition (diesel).
LFP chemistry will certainly become increasingly dominant over the next few years, particularly now that key patents have expired. But it doesn't supplant all usages of NMC yet, and isn't likely to for some time.
Iron ion and phosphate are the same LiFePO4. Compared to cobalt ones it has lower nominal voltage, and higher recharge cycles, less energy density as well.
LFP can have similar density since you don't need the same amount of protection in the pack. It's a system level win.
I'd imagine most Model Ys are LRs. The standard range wasn't even listed normally until like a month ago.
You're mixing up LFP (LiFePo4 aka Lithium Ferrum(Iron) Phosphate) with NMC (Nickel Manganese Cobalt). NMC are lighter and more firey.
Before Covid, one could buy Toyota vehicles 6% under MSRP. Today, Toyota dealers want $5K mark up fees, on top of MSRP, then all extra garbage, with 3 months wait time. If your family already owns an ICE vehicle, just buy Tesla Model Y as a second vehicle. These car companies and their dealers just try to screw customers with all hidden garbage.
The wait time for a Sienna in Canada reached 5 years at one point this year. I've never been so flabbergasted in my life.
I am driving a 2016 minivan and no one I trust is offering an electric model yet. I hope Toyota wakes up, they have completely lost the plot.
I’m really surprised about this. I live in the capital city of an European country (~50M people) and I don’t think I’ve seen even one, maybe it’s not sold here? I see a fair number of model 3 and a few S, though.
It's because Tesla has so few models. Every other manufacturer has an order of magnitude (or two orders) more models you can buy. Some brands have more EV models than Tesla does.
Half of it is the buying process.
100%. Automakers go on about the "dealership experience", but I have never hated my life more than when trying to by a car at a local dealership.
- Had a confirmed appointment but when I showed up I still had to wait 45 minutes.
- Salespeople were clueless about the features of the car they were trying to sell. I knew more after 30 minutes of online research and had to constantly call out their bullshit.
- The car I had reserved was somehow no longer available, and then they tried to upsell me on extras I didn't want.
- I wanted manufacturer financing but they told me that wouldn't be possible and I had to get theirs at a much higher rate. I again had to threaten to walk out to get the advertised rate.
- All the dealerships in the area had priced their vehicles at $10K over MSRP, and the extra was pure profit for them. Heck they were making significantly more money on the car than the manufacturer themselves, all because of a government mandated monopoly.
And all this was for a >$50K luxury vehicle.
Meanwhile a friend configured a Tesla online and it showed up at his doorstep a couple weeks later, with the exact advertised price, financing and selections.
I've heard it's even worse if you want to buy an EV.
Dealerships make half their money from the service department. EV's require very little service. So they don't want to sell and EV, and it shows.
Go to a Ford dealer and try to buy a Mustang Mach-E and they'll try really hard to convince you to buy an ICE Mustang.
The worst dealership experience I ever had was when I was buying my first car back in 2003. I was 21 at the time, and I just wanted something reliable and efficient that I could carry friends in. I told sales people that it must have 4 doors, A/C, and under $10K. And one of them tries to sell me a Pontiac Sunfire convertible for $12K. I re-iterated what I was looking for. Reliable, efficient, 4-door, A/C, under $10K. He showed me an $13K Mustang. I thanked him for wasting my time and left.
Tesla makes is so damn easy. I had a similar experience as your friend. I spent 30 seconds minutes choosing the configuration (Model 3 Performance, blue, no FSD, black interior), filled out the online credit application, and a week later, picked up the car from the service center downtown. The delivery experience was just as simple. Just had to sign some final delivery paperwork and some DMV paperwork that was already printed and just needed a quick scan and signature. Less than 5 minutes, and the car was mine. I was blown away how fast it was. I literally said to the guy there, "That's it? The car is mine and I can drive away now?". I was incredulous.
Dealerships could easily make the experience this easy if they wanted, but no, they want to play games with you to fuck you over.
I test drove the BMW ix, Mercedes EQS and Model Y last year and ended up with the Y which is my second Tesla.
The BMW and Mercedes experiences were a frustrating combo of the usual dealership tactics, large price markups and many of the options being unavailable in the US. The Y was also superior on features like storage. The BMW has neither a frunk or a sub trunk like the Tesla. Both the BMW and the Mercedes don’t allow the end user to open the hood at all.
> Go to a Ford dealer and try to buy a Mustang Mach-E and they'll try really hard to convince you to buy an ICE Mustang.
At least in EV-forward markets, this isn't much of a thing anymore, simply because they can't fight the fact that EVs have become the new aspirational cars.
You're being downvoted but I'm not sure you're entirely wrong.
I'm currently buying a Rivian Truck, pricing is straightforward and I could be buying a T-Shirt on a Shopify site. Simple, I know the price and the experience, while not always easy, has been straightforward.
My wife has suddenly needed a new car and leans towards a Mercedes or Audi EV and we're suddenly slammed back into going onto a lot and dealing with the normal car sales bullshit and it's a nuisance. Just test driving a car (which is a fairly significant thing for someone who's not driven an EV) is a high pressure situation.
I was in the EV market recently and managed to test drive an Audi E-Tron. I'll probably never forget how casually the salesman told me that they were marking them up $5K over MRSP and still had a 10 month waitlist. I walked out of there pretty quick. Who's putting up with this?!
Car dealers really have no leverage. You can walk out at any time up until signing the paperwork, and just go to another dealer.
Yes but their job is literally to manipulate you into buying a car then and there. They play all sorts of dirty tricks to get there.
worlds best selling car. Remember that the Tesla buying process is known as the "car buying process" since forever, outside the US, at least in the kind of countries where people buy expensive cars.
I ended up looking at some cars late last year, and the worst part was one of the dealer salespeople trying to pull that ridiculous "my boss won't like the deal I'm about to offer so why don't we talk outside" bullshit on me.
* In the US
Does this include pre-sale statements or finalized deliveries only? It is one thing to have a high number of corporate pre-order it is quite another to have cars on the road.
Sales are only accounted on delivery, that is when title is transferred.
Much of this reflects the chip shortage that Toyota is facing, and how difficult new Corollas are to actually come by. The typical wait time for a Corolla is now 1 year+ in major urban centers of Canada.
For people buying new cars, yeah I guess I understand that being true. America prefers SUVs, but it's an interesting statistic.
The Corolla is purchased by those who want an affordable sedan, as well as the affluent who don't want the unreliability of a German luxury car or a Tesla and are putting their money in other things like their home and marketable securities.
The Ford F-150 is a vehicle used widely by commercial organizations as well as American retail consumers who can afford one.
All of this leads me to think if you want to know what popular vehicle sales really are, I suspect you have to look at the used car market and normalize by model, removing years or generations to understand what the average consumer is really buying.
> don't want the unreliability of a German luxury car or a Tesla
I truly beg you to talk to an actual Tesla owner to refine your opinions.
EVs are practically 0-maintenance machines. Unless you need to change your tires... you just don't think about oil changes or motor belts breaking or engine filters clogging and all the other nonsense that breaks in an ICE car.
If you hate Tesla that's a completely valid opinion, but don't pretend that people are buying Teslas just to spite themselves... the user experience is, for the vast majority of people, simply great.
> I truly beg you to talk to an actual Tesla owner to refine your opinions.
Hi! I'm an actual Tesla owner. My Model X is approaching 3 years old.
It is the worst car I have ever owned. Almost everything that can break on it, has broken. I would care much less if Tesla would actually try to fix it when you take it in for service (as mine has been for a total of weeks), instead they lie and say things like "that's normal" when it clearly isn't.
I hate the car, I hate the service experience, and now, for a fun bonus extra, I hate Elon.
I will never buy another Tesla.
I have interior bodywork that makes creaking sounds when I go over any bump. Was also told by service that’s expected for the model
It isn't, but what they actually mean is that they will refuse to fix it, and "it's normal" is the fastest way to get you to go away.
What are you getting next? I’m looking for a large electric SUV/van/truck to complement my model Y (wife keeps taking it instead of using her own car) but the only ones I like are Teslas and Rivians.
I have pre-ordered a Polestar 3.
- "Tesla was both the least reliable but most popular EV brand in a survey of owners that found one in three of all EVs had major issues in the past year" [1]
- "Electric vehicles are less reliable than gas cars, according to a survey of UK drivers." [1]
- "Kia was the most reliable EV maker in the study, while Tesla was the least reliable." [1]
- "Consumer Reports Still Ranks Tesla Reliability 27th Out Of 28" [2]
- "The Model Y still has body hardware issues with the tailgate and door alignment, paint defects, and multiple other problems." [2]
[1]: https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-least-reliable-ev-bran...
[2]: https://insideevs.com/news/549130/consumerreports-tesla-reli...
It’s true. Luxury cars using brand new technology are less reliable that cheap and simple cars with old fashioned technologies.
The first Tesla model S were particularly not very reliable. Lot of equipments, new vertical integration from Tesla on many parts, unreliable premium technology such as air suspension…
The model 3 and y are a bit better. The electric (not hybrid) BMW i3 from the same period has been one of the most reliable BMW, a more experienced brand with ICE cars having similar equipment.
If you wanted reliability in 2013, a base Dacia was probably a better choice.
I've a 20 year old BMW that's never given me any grief with the air suspension. Air suspension is not new technology and it wasn't new when my car was built.
I have a hard time to believe those articles, from my anecdotal experience of owning a model 3 since April 2019, I had zero (0) issue, no recall, no oil change, nothing. Feels like cheating. I did change a tire (well 2 because they come in pairs) because I drove on a piece of metal poking one tire. Nothing due to Tesla. I do not even brake, so those brake pads would last a very long time... You really have to try it, it is quite impressive.
This is one of those things where it's quite clear to me there's news and there's immutable fact. My friends have Teslas and they have never brought it into the shop. Everyone I know with one says they don't trust FSD entirely but love the car and use AP all the time.
It's like the iPhone. When it was released to years afterwards, enthusiasts breathlessly posted about how it was nothing like the Nokia whatever or the Windows Mobile whatever.
They posted about the factories and who was first and established companies and articles about how the iPhone had no copy and paste or this or that.
Meanwhile, the iPhone surged ahead. Everyone I knew who had one raved. It was apparent that the enthusiasts were blindsided. People without an opinion were buying this device. It was going to rule!
Same with Teslas. Rave reviews from my network of early buyers of their non-sports-car. Online all sorts of warnings and complaints. Years later, rave reviews from my friends. Turns out it works out. People online can find 400 sources for their stuff. The factories are in tents. There are gaps in the panels. FSD isn't fully self driving.
But people love it. And now we find ourselves at immutable fact: best selling car in the world.
Can confirm that it’s an iPad on wheels. I love my old suv, really great car but the Model Y is like getting off a horse and into a space ship.
There are features on this car that should be standard on every car in the planet, and one thing Tesla will accomplish over the next few years is force car manufacturers to implement those features. And not nickel and dime you for premium audio in two trims out of 12 and list 160 features on an about this car page. It’s bananas. Anyone that’s ever bought a Tesla will never step a foot into a dealership to be talked down by some kid about how they need to check with the manager about the price of a some mid fit bs suv, while trying to sell you a tire warranty.
Meanwhile, a coworker got a Model S and after 2 service visits ended up having to change his entire wiring harness. On a vehicle with less than 100 miles.
> EVs are practically 0-maintenance machines. Unless you need to change your tires... you just don't think about oil changes or motor belts breaking or engine filters clogging and all the other nonsense that breaks in an ICE car.
Until your AC fails in your s/x outside of warranty, or you get unlucky enough to have your Y's heat pump fall apart like thousands of people in cold climates have over the last few years. Both repairs are $5000+ and seem to happen much faster than similar issues in conventional vehicles with belt driven AC compressors.
FWIW I've been driving German cars my whole life and never had one break. Never had to think about motor belts or engine filters - just visit a garage for planned maintenance every year or whatever miles the manual states.
Tesla are an amazing company, that made EVs mainstream, but I'm never going to buy one. They don't know what the word "privacy" means.
Counter point, I drove a new German car and had the turbo blow up (this was an "economy" car) within 4,000 miles. I still loved that car, but ICE engines have an order of magnitude more points of failure.
I had my first two engines on my current car (2007, current engine 2013) replaced before finally having a reliable car (manufacturer paid for both replacements after noting there were defects and not anything I had done).
some times stuff is just borked up until a certain point and some of us get unlucky with the quicker to die versions.
sucks, but we need to look at the averages, not the outliers.
* editing to add that I would still recommend my car make and model, because it's just so damned awesome, but I would hate for others to go through what I went through.
True, but car industry has an order of magnitude more experience making ICE engines and turbo blow up on a new car is extremely rare.
Doesn't really matter, obviously EVs are the future.
For comparison, here's the Tesla maintenance schedule: none.
That's how they achieved the "least reliable" award.
I think it is the goal for all EV companies. But for instance some had some mechanical issues that required recalls. And since most car manufacturers used 3rd party parts (Bosch, etc.) they cannot guarantee that there would be no recall (e.g. airbags, etc.). But so far my model 3 (April 2019) did not get a single recall. And during those 4 years I did not have to change anything but a flat tire. It is a peace of mind to know that there are so fewer ways to break the car, than with a ICE.
huh, I read that in a completely different way than you. my brain inserted an Oxford comma:
> don't want the unreliability of a German luxury car or a Tesla
became
> don't want the unreliability of a German luxury car, or a Tesla
since the addition of the article "a" seemed to change the meaning. had it been
> don't want the unreliability of a German luxury car or Tesla
it would have conveyed even different meaning to me.
I'm kind of curious what the GP's post actually meant at this point.
That's not what an Oxford comma is, FYI. I think GGPs interpretation is grammatically correct but I agree that the phrasing is ambiguous. But given Tesla's documented unreliability one can assume what they meant...
HAHAHAHA OH! Oh that’s a good one! I owned a Tesla and I can tell that they are absolutely the worst when it comes to maintenance. Obviously nobody who genuinely cared about vechical reliability would ever buy from Tesla. It’s very cheap to operate without gas and it’s just fun to drive, but don’t make this stuff up you just sound like a bot.
You're the one that sounds like a bot. Owned a Tesla for the past 5 years, zero issues.
Yeah, I’ve spent about five or six times as much servicing my Honda Odyssey over the last three years as my Tesla. And, my Tesla isn’t zero-maintenance but most of the service has involve me parking my car on my driveway and waiting for the mobile tech to show up.
And just how much tax incentives and government handouts have gone into making this headline happen? Seems like a lot of upward transfer of wealth for what is arguably marginal (if any) improvement to the environment or driver experience.
Any speculation why model Y is selling better than model 3?
Because Tesla is pushing the Model Y with their pricing (presumably because margins are better). The Model Y Long Range is $500 cheaper than the Model 3 Long Range after tax credits. The base Model Y is only $3.5k more expensive than the Model 3, after tax credits.
For many months you couldn't even order a Model 3 Long Range, your only option was a Model Y Long Range.
Because the market for a sedan is drying up. People are looking for SUVs and people like me who we’re looking for an SUV in 2023, found themselves staring at 40-44k price tag for the same thing we got 4 years ago, for 31-33k. So after EV tax credit a model y is literally a no brainer.
It’s so ridiculous that I didn’t bother looking at Tesla at all in 2022. You are going to get out of your CRV, CX5, RAV4, Highlander, and straight into a model Y and it will feel like you went from a flip phone to an iPhone.
Easy, crossovers are just more popular. Slightly bigger and a hatchback. Much more practical.
Also, ubiquitous rear cameras make the longstanding rear visibility issues of hatchbacks basically nonexistent.
The Model Y has the tiniest rear window in human history, presumably for this reason.
People typically want to be able to peek behind the car while driving though.
The trunk opening on the 3 is very small compared to Y
The moment you own both a 3 and one of those enormous SUV-like baby strollers, you get rid of the 3 and get something else. A Y if you liked your 3, or probably a van if not.
Model 3 interior is very small.
see this article 'This Is Why Toyota Isn't Rushing to Sell You an Electric Vehicle': https://jalopnik.com/toyota-focusing-on-hybrids-not-electric...
Then why the hell are they so expensive? I'd like to be all in on electric, but my car budget is 30k, why do they pile so much fancy crap on them? I want a go pedal, a stop pedal and a window crank. You can keep all the rest of the crap for the luxury cars.
Interesting statistics. In Ireland, VW just knocked Toyota off the top spot. I think Toyota being late to market with a full BEV might have something to do with it (yes, I know they now have the alphabet soup one whose name would score a lot in Scrabble but is, otherwise, utterly forgettable).
I bought a used Mercury Grand Marquis 2009 in perfect condition one year ago and I don't see why would I want to part with it in the next 20 years or so. Grain leather interior that is not making any sounds on road bumps, no touchscreen bs, super smooth ride thanks to rear air suspension. Sure it can't accelerate as fast as an EV, but I just want have a relaxed pleasing experience, not accelerations. It's V8 also makes pleasing sounds when going uphill.
And I paid just 6k for it. I'd rather double the normal maintenance for it than buy a Tesla.
Chinese cars like Korean cars used to be joke - the new Haval SUV is cheaper and quality wise from the looks on par with my Hyundai SUV.
The biggest quality concern isn't that something will break but the quality of the support I get when it does. If the closest dealership+brand repair shop is two hours drive away and all the major brands have repairs 5 minutes drive away, then it's not competitive. The moat of the established brands is pretty big when it comes to the service network.
Imagine if Toyota would've just made a simple, but nicely build electric car 3-5 years ago. Pretty foolish mistake.
They had a 10 year head start on EVs (well, Hybrids), with the Prius and blew it.
Worse: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/07/toyota-bet-wrong-on-evs...
Even worse is they had multiple generations of a RAV4 EV, which they stopped manufacturing in 2014. They made it along side Tesla in the same plant that now makes Model Ys.
Funny that now they have the Rav4 Prime, which by some metrics is a top contender in the plugin-hybrid space.
How much does this really matter? I feel like Tesla is strong in the market because they figured out how to market an EV as a sports car. Toyota was never going to do that.
In the US it was the experience I think. Just like Uber in some markets where taxis were a shitty experience before, buying a car was (apparently) a crappy experience in the US before Tesla. But that's a very local phenomenon. Not sure about the sports car thing though. It's not much difference between a Model Y and a Mach-E or Polestar2 when it comes to this. Tesla did have the performance angle because they were early movers and compared to an ICE car their entire lineup is obviously looking pretty snappy.
Most buyers though just want a boring reliable car. If a known and Trusted brand made a car that was just 10% more expensive and 10% less attractive on specs than a Tesla, then Toyota would eat their lunch I think.
It probably doesn’t matter. There are plenty of people who want simpler cars, but still want an electric drive train. There must be loads of us holding out for a Corolla or Camry like EV.
I don’t understand why Toyota has not produced a model like this and is doubling down on their Hybrids and hydrogen engines.
Why not? Toyota sells sports cars.
What about the Corolla GR and Yaris GR, though?
An electric Toyota Supra would easily outsell most Tesla's. It's a much nicer looking car than anything I've seen come from Tesla, the interior is so well done too.
It's a shame they've lost it.
I meant to say in the sports car category.
the Prius prime is a legitimately pretty great hybrid, but it took them a shocking long time to get there.
The ability to go fast does not make it a good cars. In fact, this is mistake that many US carmakers made. As Toyota focused on reliability, their faster competitors ultimately ended up being abandoned since nothing turns away customers like a dead car.
A hybrid car is a very complicated machine - more so than an EV, a turbo petrol or a diesel.
Turbos aren't very simple. The 'toyota synergy' style hybrid transaxle is a whole lot less complicated than most transaxles too. ICE cars already had an electric starter motor, so it's just adding a second electric motor and some batteries and a charging circuit.
The benefits are clear. Immense range, lower fuel consumption, longer maintenance intervals vs an ICE only, etc.
It's advantage for Toyota. They really should pushed PHEVs earlier like 2015, before Tesla M3 was sold.
The Prius has been around for over 20 years. They've had PLENTY of time to figure out how to make it not suck.
but Toyota sells more cars in a year than Tesla has in the past decade? And no, if they made an EV it probably wouldn't be selling like hotcakes, because an EV is largely an irrational choice for most people (looking at you, guys chilling in your cars on top of the Target in Laurel Heights in SF, waiting for that 80% in 30 minutes) and Toyota isn't good at making something super desirable. All that aside, most workhorses running around today, shuttling passengers and food delivery seem to be old, clapped out Priuses. Can't argue with 45mpg and ultra low running costs, barring the occasional stolen catalytic converter.
Because there is very little point in making a battery powered car. Toyota was told the same thing but with diesel cars. In reality, all those went too far with diesel cars made a mistake. The story will repeat itself with battery cars.
Prius prime and rav4 prime are a thing.
You can compare Tesla to Hyundai. I was leaning towards Hyundai or a Kia last month, mainly because of Tesla stigma here.
After comparing price (Hyundai/Kia 10% more) and features (lol) Tesla is easily a winner. Sure it's not for everyone, but driving traditional car feels weird now. Car without an app or phone key just feels unbelievable.
But hydrogen cars are the future! /s
Hydrogen cars are the future. This is just another fad green movement in the car industry.
What happens when you need to change the battery? Isn’t it extremely expensive?
As a cyclist, there isn't any car on the road that scares me more than these. The drivers are worse than aggressive truck drivers.
Given that it's the best selling car, maybe it's just that people are generally horrible at driving? At least in my area the drivers of these seem an order of magnitude more clueless than any others.
Purely anecdata but I spend a lot of time walking and cycling, and I couldn’t agree with you more. Tesla Y/3 drivers are up there with BMW (higher end newer model) drivers as the most arrogant and oblivious drivers on the road. It’s actually kind of impressive how those cars have so many driver aids, yet they still manage to drive like drunk 16yr old learners.
It's interesting because there used to be a similar cliche about Prius drivers being terrible when they were a new sensation.
Maybe there's something about people who are first adopters of "environmentally friendly" cars feeling a sense of moral license, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-licensing, and end up being less conscientious on the road as a result.
Or maybe the rest of us just notice these bad drivers more because the cars stick out on the road as new and unusual.
Or maybe the drivers tend to just be rich, distracted assholes.
It’s definitely related to the moral license thing in my opinion. As a cyclist there are a lot of bad drivers out there, but I’ve learned to treat every Tesla like I do lifted trucks. I think they feel that they are at the top of the moral hierarchy and forget about pedestrians and cyclists completely.
Not all of them, obviously, but enough.
The main irritant about initial Prius drivers was that they were a pain in the ass for going so goddamn slow--a LOT of them were "hypermiling".
This is different from the Tesla drivers who think that their acceleration always lets them cut in front of people.
I cycle a lot in Berlin. My observation is that EVs are far safer to be around because the car will hit the breaks before the driver gets into any trouble. Big ICE cars on the other hand are the worst. SUVs are the worst. I constantly get cut off by obnoxious drivers aggressively driving from traffic light to traffic light, cutting off people, breaking the speed limit, running red lights, double parking, or slamming their door in your face because they can't bothered to look around then. German traffic rule enforcement is very hands off so there is a lot of this going on. I deal with this on a daily basis.
Big fast car with an automatic transmission is a recipe for you getting forced out of your lane by someone in over 5000lbs of metal who thinks their time is more important than considering your life by changing lanes to pass. O-60 entirely silently in 3 seconds, you won't even realize you are going fast enough to kill someone instantly.
They're definitely not silent at 60.
Relatively speaking an EVs 3s 0-60 is ~silent compared to any ICE doing the same 0-60 time.
That level of acceleration generally requires a pretty rowdy ICE with the taps wide open.
Yup, an Audi RS3 for example, is not quite when doing that at all...
https://youtu.be/ZTrfpahATpc?t=82
Seems pretty quiet in the cabin getting to 60 in under 2 seconds with the plaid.
You realize the cabin audio is background audio in that video -- edited to be much lower volume than the foreground narrator, right?
Like, how about I share a video of a hellcat 0-60 but turn down the audio to 1% and call it quiet?
Outside the car the tires make quite a lot noise.
I have noticed this too and I feel it's because of the higher acceleration. It may give the drivers the feeling that they can insert themselves in even closer encounters because the car is more responsive.
Ever notice how some minivan drivers go way too fast for the size of their vehicle? Some think it is because the good forward visibility gives the drivers too much confidence. 3 and Y may have the same good visibility "problem" due to the sloping hood and the non existing dashboard.
The car is a giant smartphone with a distracted driver
People said the same thing about the Prius when it was the most popular car.
Except that prius took 10 seconds to go to 60mph and this tesla takes 3. Lead foot + silent car + crazy fast 0-60 = people driving like a GTA game.
There's plenty of people driving like it's GTA in their dog-slow base model nissan altimas and ram 2500s, more BEVs isn't gonna change the fact that a large chunk of society are selfish and antisocial.
From what I've heard, most crash testing focuses on car-on-car crashes, instead of car-on-pedestrian. The inevitable result is big and fast cars efficient at killing pedestrians.
And don't forget the lack of control knobs. The stupid touch interface takes drivers attention away from the road.
I have a GoPro 360 and ride every day to work and back in SF. I curate my video afterwards for interesting scenes. Nothing notable about car makes. "Keep Tahoe Blue" Ancient Subaru? Signal free lane change into bike lane. G Wagon with no licence plate on the front? Signal free lane change into bike lane.
When I used to ride my motorcycle the vehicle that put me in the hospital was a Prius. Tesla Model S cars are wide and annoying to lane split against but the drivers are just drivers.
Ultimately, this appears to be purely a cultural thing. People want to say that someone else is not better than them. So they will find some way to attach some unlikeable attribute to them.
Imho it's just culturally taken the place of the Beamer for the same kind of drivers.
You know, the old "despite its good brakes, the BMW will usually stop with a jerk".
Given Tesla and truck hate Cybertruck is going to be ultimate. Lucky they are making it from a solid steel.
People are generally horrible at driving. But then giving them a big, fast SUV with absurd levels of acceleration available is a horrible choice, and so hearing that this is the best seller should definitely strike fear into our hearts.
Corollas are tiny and like a relic of a bygone era. These new vehicles shouldn’t be more agile on top of being way bigger.
As a cyclist, I haven't noticed anything like that. I suspect some internal bias towards EVs or against Elon or something is making you notice a pattern that isn't there.
Tesla drivers statistically have significantly less accidents than other vehicles. So, by the data, they can't be worse than other drivers.
How are the cars compared?
yeah of course. because as we all know, accidents are the only indicator of bad driving
If you're being cut off or they are not using their indicators or if they park in your lane or they drive really close behind you or they use too much space when turning a corner or they simply don't see you because they're looking left rather than right or they are using their mobile device or they take your right of way or they change lanes without looking...
they are bad drivers without accidents because everyone else is watching out for them.
It may be just a UK thing but I find Tesla drivers the least aggressive of all expensive car drivers.
If I see a Range Rover, Mercedes, Audi, BMW or any large pick-up in my rear view mirror I expect to be aggressively tailgated and I'm generally correct. This has not happened to me with a Tesla, that I can recall.
Yeah. I assume teslas are using the lane following thing most of the time.
it’s because Tesla drivers know the AI will save them from making any mistakes /s
I have heard second hand accounts from friends who have been hit by Teslas whose drivers tried to claim innocence because they were convinced their car would definitely have told them if they hit something and it didn't.
I have also heard urban legends.
I've often wished there was some kind of tiny beacon cyclists and pedestrians could carry to electronically alert those kinds of cars/drivers.
Yeah it's incorrectly shifting the responsibility to the victim but at this point whatever prevents injury/death/stress.
The problem is it would be abused to trick drivers.
No need, the cars already see cyclists and pedestrians and have emergency braking. A transponder system is just a worse version of the existing solution.
Yeah, but the spontaneous battery fires really help light the way at night in areas where the streetlights are poor.
Maybe watch less sensational news and go outside more. I wouldn't feel so immune in your combustion car. You know what combustion means? You'd be surprised to know they also combust unexpectedly and on impact
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I'd still much more gladly prefer the Toyota.
The more drivers you get in a particular model, the more clueless drivers you'll see in that model.
It's a form of survivor bias.
No, white Tesla Model Y/3 (the paint color that doesn’t cost extra) seem to occupy the same jerk driver niche that the BMW 3-series used to own. Lots of young, single men stretching their wallets for one.
Totally agreed, in the last 5 years or so it feels like mediocre drivers have switched from white entry-level BMW drivers to white Teslas. It's definitely hit the mass market of somewhat-well-off people rather than just tech bros who like the technology.
We must be a few years behind you in the UK since the white Audi reigns supreme with these kind of people.
I own a white model 3, I am not young or single, but I see how it could be judged that way. Well, I wish you could try one and enjoy the ride, because it is a well made vehicle, regardless of the clichés attached to the car.
I didn’t drive a 3, but I have done so for a Y. Didn’t like the lack of buttons that’s dressed up as futuristic but is really a UX hostile cost savings choice. Ended up buying a new CRV hybrid for 2/3 of the price, with actual AC and radio buttons (this year is redesigned and is a bit larger than the previous generation)
I’m here to point out white is the safest color for a car.
If you're in the market, go for a couple of test drives. The competition is mostly regular ICE cars with a battery bolted on, while Teslas are designed from ground up as EVs and it shows throughout in ways big and small. We were originally leaning towards getting a Polestar, but the difference between driving one and a Tesla is night and day.
I drive an ID4 after looking at the Model Y. It's a ground up EV and a solid competitor. As a family crossover it's great. The software is pretty dumb but that's mostly avoided thanks to wireless Android Auto and CarPlay.
What won me over: Rear window was easier to see through, the above mentioned Carplay/AA support, not a fan of Tesla's extreme minimalism extending to things like air vents, brand tainted by Musk.
I test drove a Polestar 2, what are these car designers thinking with rear view visibility!
The between the rear headrests and huge slanted C-pillars you had a tiny sheet of paper sized opening to see out. I honestly thought the mirrors were adjusted wrong and were looking at the roof. Couple that with a half-baked 360 reversing camera that turned every obstacle into a trapezoidal blur, reversing parking that car between two other cars at the end of the drive was terrifying experience.
Nice car though.
You only need the rear view for keeping an eye on traffic behind while on the road, so basically the window should be the size of the FoV in your rear view mirror.
For parking, I don't think I have looked at anything but cameras for the last 15 years. The camera is so much better than both looking backwards and using the center mirror. Especially with 360 cameras because you can then "look" backwards without missing anything happening elsewhere. I definitely bought my last car without 360 cameras several years ago.
Well the new Polestar solved the problem… by removing the rear window altogether and slapping a camera in its place. Not joking, look it up!
The eGMP platform options from Hyundai (Hyundia Ioniq 5 and 6, Kia EV6, Genesis GV60) were also built in a dedicated manner.
While I have an EV6 (and my wife an ID.4), if I was on the market now, there's a ton of low-mileage Model 3 and Y out there, and the prices have come down significantly.
I test drove a Tesla and an EV6 and wound up with the EV6. Tesla's got a lot going for them but their lead is quickly evaporating.
I looked at both too, and bought a model Y. What were the deciding factors for you?
I liked the Tesla software and easy supercharger access. The model Y also felt more spacious, especially in the trunk.
I would summarise it as a much better UX in the model Y.
Off topic, but Musk v2.0 after the pandemic has been acting as a madman, and making pricing changes all over the board. We booked a Y, but the problem is they removed the $100 per month EAP subscription which could be a real beater for using it in an on-demand basis. Hopefully it comes back.
Is EAP "Enhanced Auto-Pilot" (self-driving)?
Yeah, it's the enhanced autopilot. It's not self- driving though, the only thing it does on its own is change lanes automatically and park itself and come out of a parking spot to get you
Out of curiosity, what did you prefer about the Tesla over the Polestar?
The minimalist cabin is the obvious one: it's more spacious and feels much more spacious thanks to the glass roof. I did have severe doubts about the touchscreen and lack of controls, but in practice this has been a non-issue, there are tactile controls for everything you need to actually drive and voice controls for everything you don't (climate, music, etc). The glove box is just stupid though.
The Polestar 2 is built on Volvo/Geely's CMA platform and is very similar to the ICE Volvo XC40.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Modular_Architecture_p...
Meh, my wife was grooving for a Polestar so I rented a Polestar 1 for a weekend and we both came away feeling like it was good to rent because we definitely didn’t want to buy it. It was like the Swedes put all their effort into the material design and gave no shits about the UX. The UX was something Ford would have been proud of in 2009.
It really does though.. the model Y storage area folds flat completely and my 6'5 self can lay flat with extra leg room and sit up straight with plenty of headroom.
There is no body designed around the constraints of routing exhaust or transmission elements. It is just an empty box.
The Polestar 2 glass roof is a little glass pane cut into the roof that costs $5000 extra. On the Model 3/Y, the entire roof is glass.
I went with a Tesla over a Polestar because the Tesla has more range, is a lot more efficient, and has more power than the Polestar.
Sadly, in countries where no Tesla dealerships exist, it's next to impossible to buy unless you have truly unlimited budget. Model Y is in the same effective price range as Bentley: pay $100K in cash then pay $20K for each service or repair (because car has to be shipped 500 miles away on a boat and serviced there, takes 2 months and $20K). And you keep driving your Bentley in the meantime :)
That's situation here in Cyprus, thus in spite of a lot of people with money willing to buy, only 0.8% of cars sold are electric vs ~20% in poorer countries that do have Tesla dealerships. Because when Tesla is there, everyone else tries hard to sell their electrics too.
Have you driven an id4? Similar to Tesla the id platform was built for EVs.
I'm a huge fan of VW, but the ID.4 is pretty gutless compared to any Tesla model. That may appeal to some people, but I like speeding; a lot.
The Kia EV6 is a ground up EV and is better in every way than the Model Y
What makes you think the model Y isn't solid or reliable? I'm super happy with my 2021.
I've also driven my Nissan Leaf since 2013 with zero shop visits outside of tire shops.
A negative comparison on reliability with ICE just does not compute to me.
Anecdote about a Nissan Leaf: I'll never forget being on holiday in Sri Lanka, walking through a tiny, countryside village. I was on my way to see a Buddhist temple. I was surprised to see an all-electric Nissan Leaf. It blew me away. I guess she is still driving it today!
> Think about what that means for the future of all auto mechanics. Will there be far fewer?
Definitely. This is one of the reasons why dealerships are reluctant with EVs: apparently a big chunk of their profits come from servicing the cars they sell.
My in-laws also have a Nissan Leaf from 2013. It lost some amount of capacity but there has never been a problem with it. It is crazy.
> I've also driven my Nissan Leaf since 2013 with zero shop visits outside of tire shops.
How many miles/kilometers have you driven?
Tesla is first and foremost a technology company. Top notch tech, second-rate car.
Toyota is first and foremost a car company. Top notch car, fifth-rate tech.
Toyota is first and foremost a manufacturing company; they go to absurd lengths to ensure their supply chain is as robust as can be and that the product they deliver is reliable. It just happens to be cars. (And forklifts. And probably lots of other stuff, too)
The downside, of course, being that most of their offerings appear quite, uh, boring.
Upside? Anecdotally, my 26 year old Toyota Land Cruiser (With 300k miles on it!) has cost me less in workshop visits and parts over the 140k miles I've owned it than the missus' 2016 VW Passat has over 30k miles of ownership. And the Passat isn't a bad car at all. Has the Land Cruiser beat on fuel economy, though.
Toyota recently disassembled a model Y to study it and this is what their executives said:
"Taking the skin off the Model Y, it was truly a work of art. It's unbelievable,"
"It's a whole different manufacturing philosophy," while another added, “We need a new platform designed as a blank-sheet EV."
German here. Cars are one hallmark of our economy. We are behind as well. The Chinese are absolutely crushing it in Asia and Middle East now.
Volkswagen had a market share of ICE cars of ~20%, for EVs it's now closer to 1%. EVs are way easier to build and a lot of Chinese companies are doing it successfully. They are offering cheaper EVs. They are selling in Mideast/Asia and now start to enter Europe as well.
None of these cars is particularly bad - while I'd still take the Korean EVs before anything else today, the Chinese are coming. German manufacturers only produce premium level cars few people can afford and they produce them badly. ID.3 is too expensive for its segment and too much of the car just doesnt work well.
https://tech.slashdot.org/story/20/02/17/1725220/tesla-teard...
>What stands out most is Tesla's integrated central control unit, or "full self-driving computer." Also known as Hardware 3, this little piece of tech is the company's biggest weapon in the burgeoning EV market. It could end the auto industry supply chain as we know it. One stunned engineer from a major Japanese automaker examined the computer and declared, "We cannot do it."
Well, that you need a dedicated EV plattform is such old news, all OEMs knew that since day -10. Tgat they didn't invest in one for a long had a lot of reasons, being unable to do so was none of those.
How does a link about a totally different car than the one being discussed prove your point?
Got any source for these statements?
The source seems to be a February article from Automotive News interviewing several Toyota execs off-the-record: https://archive.is/0LZYf. The relevant quotes are midway through
So, cars are not technology? What about, I don't know, aircraft, power plants, ships, medical devices, laptops and phones (the hardware portion of those?
And which "tech" is top notch with Tesla, self driving? Their marketing is more than just incredibly good so.
Seriously? Try driving a car from, say, the late 80s and one from 2020.
But ok, only software is tech, got it. So when exactly is mechanical engineering no longer a STEM discipline? Seriously, that take is simple hybris of the software crowd, and totally ignoring all the hardware tech all of us use all the time. But ok, a while ago the only measure of car quality was chassis panel fitting (if there ever was a truely German over engineering nonsense, that is it), now it is the feel of the car entertainment system. To each generation their own marketing abuse of technology I guess.
It’s funny because when a Tesla is given to a spouse it has lots of issues, but tech bros never seem to notice.
Which, honestly, can be said for lots of things.
> That being said it seems that 2023 is the year of the EV, my family is currently in the market for a new car and have been pleasantly surprised at the breadth of offerings.
My wife and I are in the market for a second car, after buying an ICE SUV at the beginning of the pandemic and having no car for 10 years before that (living in San Francisco).
There’s a lot of options for a $40,000+ primary family car, but my impression is that there is a notable lack of options in the “second car” or “economy car” categories. We already have the ICE SUV for road trips, camping trips, IKEA trips, etc. We will probably need a second car very soon (moving from the Bay Area to LA and less WFH schedules).
Am I just supposed to get a Leaf or a Bolt? Plug in hybrids seem very cool to me but barely exist in the US (is this really too much cognitive load to figure out how fuel economy works?). Where’s the $25,000 electric Corolla with 100 mile range?
Of all tue existing OEMs, Toyota propably botched the EV transition the most. Which actually is quite a surprise for me, to be honest.
Regarding cheap (-ish) EVs, you have Stelantis (Peugeot, Opel, Fiat, Alfa Romeo, Citroen, Chrysler). They sell a small hatchback, VW Polo sized, as an EV with, if memory serves well, a range of 300 km, for about 25k € in Germany. It is available as a Peugeot 208e, a Opel Corsa e and, more expensive and a cross-over SUV thingy, a Peugeot 2008e.
So it sure is possible. And a prime choice for a second car, in our case an EV for four, decent range and luggage space is simply out of budget for now. A smaller one, the classic second car, totally possible. But hey, you only replace cars if you have to, and now that is the big one. So no EV yet...
Toyota took a big bet on hydrogen power, so we’re not going to see an electric Corolla until they finally give in. As for the price point, electric production is still scaling out. And consumers don’t think they want vehicles with shorter range, even if that’s all they need. First, the car has to sell.
I’m not convinced by the common wisdom that “consumers demand longer battery range.” That’s especially irrelevant to the “second car” market which surely must be pretty big. I think it comes down more to how ridiculously cheap gas is (despite incessant complaints) and how long it would take most people to come out ahead even just buying a hybrid instead of a pure EV. It sure would be nice if gas were more expensive!
It seems that EVs are stuck in the range wars, the headline spec for an EV above all else is its kWh and range. It’s ridiculous, no ICE car gets marketed by range, and if they did you’d find that EVs are about on par range wise, they are just less convenient to refuel.
The value proposition of a hybrid makes EVs difficult to stomach, why get one EV when you can get two hybrids for the same price? Toyota will 100% jump on EVs once they become economical, but until then they are still making the car for the masses.
Don’t know if it’s available in the US, but we’re similar to you in wanting a lower priced second car and we’re buying an MG4.
They’re pretty reasonably priced here in the UK.
I have read dozens of articles, buying guides, and reviews of electric and hybrid cars, and I’ve never even heard of that make, so I’m guessing it’s not available in the US.
Dacia Spring come to my mind, but I am not sure is exported to US
Yeah, I’m also looking for something I can actually buy through normal channels (granted in in the last few years it has been difficult just buying any car has been difficult from a party who isn’t clearly a scalper) and expect to have some level of support availability. Not really looking to buy a car the same way I buy Raspberry Pi clones from AliExpress.
I guess they can rebrand it Renault Spring and have it serviced by Nissan ( they are all under the same alliance )
It's not. They barely have any cars under 4m there.
Mazda tried and failed, and decided to release it anyway -- see the MX-30 EV. 100 mile estimated range for $34k.
Isn’t that very expensive?
This is reasonable. OTOH a really mass-produced car means that its production becomes optimized, quirks eventually fixed, rough edges polished, etc. With model Y, Tesla has a chance to polish the design and the production process and make the car reliable and of stable quality.
They of course can squander that chance, but they never had such a chance before at all, to my mind.
It's not a huge difference to other manufacturers - the idea of putting different things on a common chassis and iterating that one slowly was happening for a while. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_platform
I think the Supercharger network was a significant competitive advantage. With the news today that Ford will be adopting NACS in the near future for North American vehicles, I do think their EV options will start to become more compelling.
I recently bought a Polestar 2. For people who aren't familiar with the brand, I describe it as "Volvo makes a Model 3".
Is it less high tech than a Tesla? Absolutely: Volvo is a car company. Is it better constructed than a Tesla? Absolutely: Volvo is a car company.
I think I might give a try for MY (if its suspension got any better), but where I live there is no real place for servicing it and insurance costs 7x the price of a new leaf for example which is insand.
as an alternative to Tesla, I recommend a Polestar 2. Somewhere between a 3 and a Y. Way better build quality (it's basically a Volvo, after all).